Christians who argue against the Pagan revival often try to achieve a “checkmate” by claiming that the tradition does not exist, that the only texts are works recorded by Christian monks and (implicitly) they probably lied or didn’t record it right, and “No” “True” atleast Norse pagan texts exist, and therefore it is a LARP… You’re just playacting a reconstruction that bears no relation to anything your ancestors actually practiced and none of the traditions survive…
An eerie piece, and most welcome. As I read along, my frustrated retired outsider teacher mind kept jumping ahead, apparently trying to beat you to the punch. “Crap argument! ALL the texts were copied and altered. Just look at the rows of bibles at a Barnes and Nobles (oh, wait…).” It felt absolutely weird.
To assert the role and role, value and significance of verse creates a myth-busting position in the face of and narrow and illogical, and poverty-stricken Western Christian mindset is important. Thank you.
My old educator’s heart felt a wave of relief while reading your poem, as I involuntarily, spontaneously, overlaid it with:
“I eat my peas with honey;
I’ve done it all my life.
It makes the peas taste funny,
But it keeps them on my knife.”
Rock and roll. The opinion that it is necessary and valuable to teach and learn through verse and memorization is in itself a heretical position in American public schools, at least. Folks are so conditioned to that position that they fundamentally numb out at the mere suggestion of it. However, it always has ever been, and remains, The Way.
If anyone doubts that, try teaching children The Tale of Custard the Dragon (Ogden Nash, 1936) by rote, set to Method Man and Red Man’s Da Rockwilder. Or quit having them read the soliloquies silently and have them start doing them, dramatically, aloud, in pairs, as if in dialogue.
As for the “pagan” material and content itself, it has always amazed me that even Classical educators can hold such a split mindset, nullifying thereby so much knowledge and richness. Senseless except as a strategy to maintain control of some version of some narrative.
I could go on and on in response. Not only did I find some joy, high entertainment and agreement here, but also inspiration to re-enter the fray with my pagan roots showing.
If you know the Táin Bó Cúailnge, the christian scribe who wrote down the main copy used today added a whole postscript about how it was all pagan nonsense. He clearly didn't make it up. The transitional comments in the poetic Edda have clues like this too.
It doesn’t seem clear to me that the revival of European paganism as a religion and the continuation of the great thinkers and poets of the Western tradition are the same thing. Of the pagan texts, I have only read the Iliad, Odyssey, Beowulf, The Saga of the Volsungs, and the Poetic Edda so this may be due to the fact that I’m not quite sure what the modern day paganism you are describing actually is. I think this is mainly a theological question.
Do you believe in the creation account described in Voluspa? Did Odin and his brothers create Midgard? Or was the creation something closer to Hesiod’s Theogony? This may be due to my monotheistic theory of mind, but I just don’t understand the theology and metaphysics of the pagan worldview. What is the theory of mind on the existence of the Greek/Roman/Norse gods, and do they exist in a different form today or are there possibly new gods?
Yes the texts have been preserved well, but what exactly is the relationship of the modern day reader to the text? Is it an authoritative source on metaphysics, morals, and history in the same way a Christians conscience is bound to submit to Scripture in order to call himself a Christian or is the mechanism different? I apologize for all the questions I’m just curious what claiming continuity with these traditions actually means.
Both the Voluspa and Theogony are Poems first and foremost... They are religious artifacts and revelatory in accords with their beauty and obvious Divine inspiration by the Muses, but they are not Monotheistic Revelations like the "Word of God" in the Hebrew traditions...
When Hesiod and Homer disagree its not the case that they must both be right via some mechanism, or that it disproves one or the other's inspiration, or that you're committing heresy or a lack of faith when you notice they contradict or one is wrong relative to what they might have said earlier... They were men composing poems, and so philosophers and critics can debate them (if one's line is obviously more beautiful then that's probably the one that will win out, the muses clearly favored that interpretation).
For the creation stories, there's obviously a multilevel aspect in that its the origin of peoples, , actual things that exist, Gods and ideas, and also a work of narrative poetry...
Often we find the creation stories get some things shockingly right... For example certain parts of Hesiod predicts Darwins theory of evolution, or certain aspects of the deep time big bang theory... but we'd not expect him to get all that right as a poet who's also talking about the evolution of concepts in the greek mind, and the geneology of Gods and by extension the tribes that brought those gods together, and uniting tons of disparate traditions into one coherrent story...
It's cool that his creation actually lines up at points with Early earth history, he was clearly inspired with great judgement and instincts... But the point is to puzzle over all of this in a manner that's beautiful and entertaining, not accept it all uncritically. Hesiod was a Poet who could tell a beautiful story, and synthetize a whole lot of a culture's wisdom concisely... Not some prophet aping the tone of a God King instructing his slaves.
This is where the Abrahamic religions are genuinely bizzare in that they insist EVERYTHING in Exodus HAD to have 100% happened or none of it did, even the parts that are mistaken... Moses' word is 100% law and don't you dare contradict him even if he does... It's very plainly influenced by the Hebrews years in bondage "Thou Shalt" and "Thou Shalt not"... Contrast with the Iliad where Diomedes can stab various Gods or The Havamal where Odin is giving you tons of advice on how to make judgements in ambiguous cases...
One tradition is clearly assuming followers and servants who must obey, whereas another is assuming warriors, aristocrats, poets, etc. who are all going to have to make their own judgements and own decisions. Thus you get Plato and the Athenians debating Homer and Hesiod deciding whether they think Homer was right about such and such God behaving in such and such way, or was Hesiod right about it being another way... Then using their judgement of philosophy, real life, and the quality of the poem's stories themselves to decide.
"Are Zeus and Ganymede gay?" for example, Was a huge point of debate both then and now... Homer and Xenophon's Socrates both say no, but the Roman emperor Hadrian and every Renaissance artist says yes, whilst DICTYS OF CRETE, an alleged direct Veteran of the Trojan war (that text is an insane story), claims Ganymede was kidnapped by the Cretans, not Zues
An eerie piece, and most welcome. As I read along, my frustrated retired outsider teacher mind kept jumping ahead, apparently trying to beat you to the punch. “Crap argument! ALL the texts were copied and altered. Just look at the rows of bibles at a Barnes and Nobles (oh, wait…).” It felt absolutely weird.
To assert the role and role, value and significance of verse creates a myth-busting position in the face of and narrow and illogical, and poverty-stricken Western Christian mindset is important. Thank you.
My old educator’s heart felt a wave of relief while reading your poem, as I involuntarily, spontaneously, overlaid it with:
“I eat my peas with honey;
I’ve done it all my life.
It makes the peas taste funny,
But it keeps them on my knife.”
Rock and roll. The opinion that it is necessary and valuable to teach and learn through verse and memorization is in itself a heretical position in American public schools, at least. Folks are so conditioned to that position that they fundamentally numb out at the mere suggestion of it. However, it always has ever been, and remains, The Way.
If anyone doubts that, try teaching children The Tale of Custard the Dragon (Ogden Nash, 1936) by rote, set to Method Man and Red Man’s Da Rockwilder. Or quit having them read the soliloquies silently and have them start doing them, dramatically, aloud, in pairs, as if in dialogue.
As for the “pagan” material and content itself, it has always amazed me that even Classical educators can hold such a split mindset, nullifying thereby so much knowledge and richness. Senseless except as a strategy to maintain control of some version of some narrative.
I could go on and on in response. Not only did I find some joy, high entertainment and agreement here, but also inspiration to re-enter the fray with my pagan roots showing.
If you know the Táin Bó Cúailnge, the christian scribe who wrote down the main copy used today added a whole postscript about how it was all pagan nonsense. He clearly didn't make it up. The transitional comments in the poetic Edda have clues like this too.
It doesn’t seem clear to me that the revival of European paganism as a religion and the continuation of the great thinkers and poets of the Western tradition are the same thing. Of the pagan texts, I have only read the Iliad, Odyssey, Beowulf, The Saga of the Volsungs, and the Poetic Edda so this may be due to the fact that I’m not quite sure what the modern day paganism you are describing actually is. I think this is mainly a theological question.
Do you believe in the creation account described in Voluspa? Did Odin and his brothers create Midgard? Or was the creation something closer to Hesiod’s Theogony? This may be due to my monotheistic theory of mind, but I just don’t understand the theology and metaphysics of the pagan worldview. What is the theory of mind on the existence of the Greek/Roman/Norse gods, and do they exist in a different form today or are there possibly new gods?
Yes the texts have been preserved well, but what exactly is the relationship of the modern day reader to the text? Is it an authoritative source on metaphysics, morals, and history in the same way a Christians conscience is bound to submit to Scripture in order to call himself a Christian or is the mechanism different? I apologize for all the questions I’m just curious what claiming continuity with these traditions actually means.
Both the Voluspa and Theogony are Poems first and foremost... They are religious artifacts and revelatory in accords with their beauty and obvious Divine inspiration by the Muses, but they are not Monotheistic Revelations like the "Word of God" in the Hebrew traditions...
When Hesiod and Homer disagree its not the case that they must both be right via some mechanism, or that it disproves one or the other's inspiration, or that you're committing heresy or a lack of faith when you notice they contradict or one is wrong relative to what they might have said earlier... They were men composing poems, and so philosophers and critics can debate them (if one's line is obviously more beautiful then that's probably the one that will win out, the muses clearly favored that interpretation).
For the creation stories, there's obviously a multilevel aspect in that its the origin of peoples, , actual things that exist, Gods and ideas, and also a work of narrative poetry...
Often we find the creation stories get some things shockingly right... For example certain parts of Hesiod predicts Darwins theory of evolution, or certain aspects of the deep time big bang theory... but we'd not expect him to get all that right as a poet who's also talking about the evolution of concepts in the greek mind, and the geneology of Gods and by extension the tribes that brought those gods together, and uniting tons of disparate traditions into one coherrent story...
It's cool that his creation actually lines up at points with Early earth history, he was clearly inspired with great judgement and instincts... But the point is to puzzle over all of this in a manner that's beautiful and entertaining, not accept it all uncritically. Hesiod was a Poet who could tell a beautiful story, and synthetize a whole lot of a culture's wisdom concisely... Not some prophet aping the tone of a God King instructing his slaves.
This is where the Abrahamic religions are genuinely bizzare in that they insist EVERYTHING in Exodus HAD to have 100% happened or none of it did, even the parts that are mistaken... Moses' word is 100% law and don't you dare contradict him even if he does... It's very plainly influenced by the Hebrews years in bondage "Thou Shalt" and "Thou Shalt not"... Contrast with the Iliad where Diomedes can stab various Gods or The Havamal where Odin is giving you tons of advice on how to make judgements in ambiguous cases...
One tradition is clearly assuming followers and servants who must obey, whereas another is assuming warriors, aristocrats, poets, etc. who are all going to have to make their own judgements and own decisions. Thus you get Plato and the Athenians debating Homer and Hesiod deciding whether they think Homer was right about such and such God behaving in such and such way, or was Hesiod right about it being another way... Then using their judgement of philosophy, real life, and the quality of the poem's stories themselves to decide.
"Are Zeus and Ganymede gay?" for example, Was a huge point of debate both then and now... Homer and Xenophon's Socrates both say no, but the Roman emperor Hadrian and every Renaissance artist says yes, whilst DICTYS OF CRETE, an alleged direct Veteran of the Trojan war (that text is an insane story), claims Ganymede was kidnapped by the Cretans, not Zues