[For my ever so patient readers, I have a massive project in the works on a par with the Warlord’s Reading list… You will not be disappointed when its out.
It’s been awhile since I read LOTR, but just a meditation: Hamlet has 2 levels, 2 storylines: the domestic and the…I reckon military, or historical. Since it’s. 5 hrs long most productions really only hit the domestic drama.
In this comment you seem to be doing the opposite: you’re ignoring the domestic drama and expressing how the military/historical should have been written. Very interesting take. I’ve always focused on the Turn of the Screw aspect of the Theoden story: a beloved respected relative, maliciously corrupted, turned against those who in reality have his best interests at heart…a bit o’ King Lear. My fave scene in the movie was Theoden’s restoration to mature vigor. Just a personal musing…carry on.
I agree I think Theoden is done right. But Eomir is all wrong, wormtongue accuses him and he runs like a bitch. It feels like the obvious plot is Eomir kills worm tongue fails to rescue Eowen is wounded and carried away by his men. Then the fellowship breaks the spell before Gandalf retrieves Eomir to relieve helms deep. It cleans everything up and deals with worm tongue who does exactly nothing for the rest of the story. All while making Eomir not a complete and total bitch.
Y’know, when I think about it (and thanks for bringing it to mind) I just hafta say: was there ever a more perfect character name than “Wormtongue”? Y’gotta go to Dickens: Mr. M’Choakumchild, the Cheeryble Brothers, Squeers…..no I still think Tolkien gets the prize!
It is not that Eomer is lacking in moral courage it is that you simply do not understand why he does what he does. He wants to slay wormtongue and possibly even his uncle, but the honor of his people would mean that no one would follow him or trust him if he did something so treacherous. Theoden’s son who had just died days before was in line for the throne not Eomer so up until that point it would have been his decision, not Eomer’s. The honor of their culture dictates that he let the king to live with his dishonor rather than to begin his rule with the ultimate dishonor and have that permanently stain his legacy. The king must be allowed redemption. You continuously fail to understand Tolkien at every turn and it’s honestly getting weird and pathetic at this point, as if your own moral bankruptcy is preventing you from understanding a greater moral framework.
There isn't a difference between moral treason and personal weakness when you're the king.
If he's just incompetent but a good man, he could Abdicate in favor of his Nephew... The second he's incompetent and insists he is competent and driving the family and kingdom off a cliff he has to die to stop him.
If your grandfather got drunk and high and tried to drive off with your kids in the back of the car and was probably going to crash and kill them... You have to shoot him, even if he's normally a great guy and otherwise has always been a good person.
When you're the person in charge you're responsible for outcomes, not your intentions. An incompetent king is worse than an evil king.
Kings are people and with people incompetence is the rule, not the exception. If all mildly incompetent kings were murdered, dynasties would have been extremely short-lived.
Regardless, Theoden was not even a weak character, he was ill. Big difference, again. The ideal solution was obviously to cure him and that is precisely what happened in the novel.
If a cure is not available, the second best thing is what actual medievals and early moderns did when the king was clearly insane: He got declared unfit and a regency took over for the duration of his reign. Perfectly viable, but rather too boring for an epic fantasy novel. In real life, boring is good, though.
I tend to think that LOTR is a good myth and it has valuable things to teach. I fully think that it will be the only work of 20th century literature to survive the fall of modern civilization. It is however the most absolutely wrong story to be imbibing today. The whole of Tolkien revolves around struggling to hold on to the right until the king comes back. It’s the story of the Danes desperately fighting Grendel before Beowulf sails down. It’s the story of the besieged city holding out for relief. That’s a good story and one worth repeating, but it’s the wrong story for today.
Unsurprisingly that’s the exact reason conservatives love LOTR because if you imbibe it today you will make every wrong decision.
Also you are entirely correct that the Rohan plot was a complete cop out by Tolkien. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if LORT gets charged in the future to have Eomer being exiled because he kills wormtongue and tries to rescue Eowen. He then flees and collects his men to pull a wandering warlord. Then the fellowship breaks the spell on Theoden and reunites the kingdom. I suspect that Eowen would no longer be his sister in this story and the culmination of this plot is a wedding after helm’s deep or the pelanor fields. Even as a kid I thought that it was a profoundly weak resolution to a great setup.
It’s been awhile since I read LOTR, but just a meditation: Hamlet has 2 levels, 2 storylines: the domestic and the…I reckon military, or historical. Since it’s. 5 hrs long most productions really only hit the domestic drama.
In this comment you seem to be doing the opposite: you’re ignoring the domestic drama and expressing how the military/historical should have been written. Very interesting take. I’ve always focused on the Turn of the Screw aspect of the Theoden story: a beloved respected relative, maliciously corrupted, turned against those who in reality have his best interests at heart…a bit o’ King Lear. My fave scene in the movie was Theoden’s restoration to mature vigor. Just a personal musing…carry on.
I rather like that Theoden is given the chance to shrug off the subversion and redeem himself in battle...provides a nice contrast against Denethor.
I agree I think Theoden is done right. But Eomir is all wrong, wormtongue accuses him and he runs like a bitch. It feels like the obvious plot is Eomir kills worm tongue fails to rescue Eowen is wounded and carried away by his men. Then the fellowship breaks the spell before Gandalf retrieves Eomir to relieve helms deep. It cleans everything up and deals with worm tongue who does exactly nothing for the rest of the story. All while making Eomir not a complete and total bitch.
Y’know, when I think about it (and thanks for bringing it to mind) I just hafta say: was there ever a more perfect character name than “Wormtongue”? Y’gotta go to Dickens: Mr. M’Choakumchild, the Cheeryble Brothers, Squeers…..no I still think Tolkien gets the prize!
It is not that Eomer is lacking in moral courage it is that you simply do not understand why he does what he does. He wants to slay wormtongue and possibly even his uncle, but the honor of his people would mean that no one would follow him or trust him if he did something so treacherous. Theoden’s son who had just died days before was in line for the throne not Eomer so up until that point it would have been his decision, not Eomer’s. The honor of their culture dictates that he let the king to live with his dishonor rather than to begin his rule with the ultimate dishonor and have that permanently stain his legacy. The king must be allowed redemption. You continuously fail to understand Tolkien at every turn and it’s honestly getting weird and pathetic at this point, as if your own moral bankruptcy is preventing you from understanding a greater moral framework.
It is part of Kulak's campaign against Christianity that leads him to misrepresent Tolkien.
The big difference is that Hamlet´s uncle is a coldblooded murderer while Theoden is essentially a good man who is under a kind of confusion spell.
Perhaps you really do not get the difference, but that is because you are a moral illiterate. It´s not Tolkien´s fault.
There isn't a difference between moral treason and personal weakness when you're the king.
If he's just incompetent but a good man, he could Abdicate in favor of his Nephew... The second he's incompetent and insists he is competent and driving the family and kingdom off a cliff he has to die to stop him.
If your grandfather got drunk and high and tried to drive off with your kids in the back of the car and was probably going to crash and kill them... You have to shoot him, even if he's normally a great guy and otherwise has always been a good person.
When you're the person in charge you're responsible for outcomes, not your intentions. An incompetent king is worse than an evil king.
Kings are people and with people incompetence is the rule, not the exception. If all mildly incompetent kings were murdered, dynasties would have been extremely short-lived.
Regardless, Theoden was not even a weak character, he was ill. Big difference, again. The ideal solution was obviously to cure him and that is precisely what happened in the novel.
If a cure is not available, the second best thing is what actual medievals and early moderns did when the king was clearly insane: He got declared unfit and a regency took over for the duration of his reign. Perfectly viable, but rather too boring for an epic fantasy novel. In real life, boring is good, though.
I tend to think that LOTR is a good myth and it has valuable things to teach. I fully think that it will be the only work of 20th century literature to survive the fall of modern civilization. It is however the most absolutely wrong story to be imbibing today. The whole of Tolkien revolves around struggling to hold on to the right until the king comes back. It’s the story of the Danes desperately fighting Grendel before Beowulf sails down. It’s the story of the besieged city holding out for relief. That’s a good story and one worth repeating, but it’s the wrong story for today.
Unsurprisingly that’s the exact reason conservatives love LOTR because if you imbibe it today you will make every wrong decision.
Also you are entirely correct that the Rohan plot was a complete cop out by Tolkien. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if LORT gets charged in the future to have Eomer being exiled because he kills wormtongue and tries to rescue Eowen. He then flees and collects his men to pull a wandering warlord. Then the fellowship breaks the spell on Theoden and reunites the kingdom. I suspect that Eowen would no longer be his sister in this story and the culmination of this plot is a wedding after helm’s deep or the pelanor fields. Even as a kid I thought that it was a profoundly weak resolution to a great setup.